I wanted to wish you a very happy and joyous holiday season!!!!
It was a pleasure to have you as part of Jewish Studies for Christians Study Group in 2013. We have grown from around 400 members to well over 2500 this year!
More importantly we all learned a lot through research and each others comments. Thank you for making this group a wonderful forum for all things Jewish for Christians.
I am looking forward to more exciting interactions with you in 2014.
In His firm grip,
Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg
P.S. For better viewing click HERE.
P.P.S. Did you know that Jan. 1 in church liturgical calendars is the Feast of Circumcision of Christ? This of course happens to be the 8th day after Dec.25 which is considered by most in the Western Church to be the birthday of Jesus. (This is regardless what we may think about the accuracy of the date itself).
Join the conversation (29 comments)
To Paul: You must always remember that the birth data is an estimation from Health Departament/Secretary, however, the birth happens at 36th week, and sometimes before, why? I do not know, perhaps because this is the right time to happen, not other, otherwise, take a look in hospitals, you will see there what is the matter. Best for you.
So is it 9 months? Or 36 weeks?
There are 13 weeks every 3 months. So 36 weeks would be closer to 8 months (~35 weeks) than it would be to 9 months (39 weeks).
Short of looking, I’m inclined to be more trusting of 40 weeks than 36.
Hi Rafael, I assumed 40 weeks. Wikipedia term for Gestation says, “In humans, birth normally occurs at a gestational age of about 40 weeks, though a normal range is from 38 to 42 weeks.”
At first, have a very good new year, plenty with success and growing;
at second, a little word about the post by Paul Herman: in Daniel, is said who the Mashiah would do the will of the Lord for three and half weeks, then should be taken; there from, we may get: one week= a year, so, three weeks= three years, according the Bible account (or I am wrong? really, I hope not). Best for you, greetings¡
Paul, thank you for sending in your in comments. Dr. Eli
you know of course we don’t know the exact date of His Jesus birthday, (incarnation) but its important that we celebrate it, most of us probably don’t even think of His circumcision except under Jewish canonical law it would have been done at 8 days and presented to the Temple, as covered by the story of Simeon.
The same applies to celebrating the Eucharist in the Christian church if you don’t participate at least fairly regularly (2 or 3 times a month) then you are disobeying the Lords request at His last passover supper , to do this in remembrance of Him.
All things will be done in Gods own time as He goes from surprise to surprise, and if God decides to change His mind along the way thats His prerogative, HE IS GOD AFTER ALL and we are His creatures made in His Image, He said He was coming soon and many expect that to be shortly , but reading the bible you should realize He doesn’t exist in TIME but out of it in another dimension and it states quite clearly that He will only return when every knee is bended to Him , so its not going to be in my lifetime or your children’s lifetime as more and more people turn away from the one True God of Israel, and turn to other Gods and Idols.
So many don’t do the things Jesus required of us but are more than willing to argue any small point
CHRISTIANITY is a religion of HOPE, hope in the lords promise that He will return someday as He promised, not in the fairy tales so many have turned it into, of getting to some other place because they are told this is not their home (Earth) well i’ve got news for them this is all we’ve got take it or leave it.
I was looking forward to this study group, but with the constant barrage of e-mails asking me to join (as i have and been confirmed by your service) i’m beginning to find maybe this is not for me after all
I have sent for several books on this subject (the jewishness of my Lord) and think i will study on my own in the future, i can’t be the only one being annoyed by this marketing attempt that is so intrusive
Respectfully Ginette, Jesus did NOT say to do it as often as we can. Further, the last supper wasn’t just a morsel. It was a meal, specifically, the Passover meal, which is only once a year. However, this is not a major issue aside from paying attention to details.
Another detail is that the scriptures do NOT say that every knee shall bow BEFORE He returns. If that were the case, then there would be no need for Him to destroy the armies gathered against Israel at the end of the great tribulation. He returns as a conquering king.
Although it’s not important to get every detail right all the time, it IS important to make sure you have the details right before you begin stating them as fact. And it’s crucial to make sure you have them right before building doctrine on them, like saying that it is a sin if you don’t do the eucharist several times each month.
Even among Puritans there were ideas that Communion was to be observed only once per year as per Passover observance. I think there different views about it. Whether once a year, once a week, or once a month it is the right object that is being sought – Jesus himself. I have no trouble with any view.
Agreed, Dr Eli. Whether a person chooses to do it only once per year, several times per day, or somewhere in between, it’s a personal choice.
But when someone claims it’s disobedience if not done right, then ought not that person to make sure to have ALL the details right? Jesus didn’t perform a communion. He performed a Passover seder.
It’s the best date for the circumstantial evidence :).
I will. My Rabbi has two CD’s on it. I will listen to them and then present the evidence..
There are several reasons to believe that Yeshua was born during the Fall, in particular during the festival of Sukkot.
1. Yeshua ‘s cousin John the Baptist was conceived in Mid Sivan (May/June) and born 40 weeks later on Nissan 15- Pesach (Passover).
a. John’s father (Zacharias) was a Levite who was assigned to serve in the temple during the course of “Abia” the 8th course of the year (Luke 1:5, 1 Chronicle’s 24:10).
b. Since the cycle of service began on the first Shabbat of Nissan, but both Passover and Shavu’ot require all priestly courses to serve, the actual time the 8th course would serve would be during the 10th week of the year. This places Zacharias’ service in the temple as beginning on the 2nd Shabbat of the month of Sivan (May/June).
c. It is written that John was conceived shortly after this tour of duty (Luke 1:23- 24). Therefore John the Baptist was probably conceived shortly after the 3rd Shabbat of the month of Sivan.
d. Therefore John the Baptist was born around Passover (Nissan 15). Recall that Yeshua said that John the Baptist was a type of Elijah the prophet (Matthew 17:10- 13, Luke 1:17). Even today it is customary for Jews to set out a cup of wine during the Passover Seder meal in anticipation of the arrival of Elijah during the festival.
End of Part 1 of 3 Parts
1. Circumstantial Evidences for Yeshua’s Birth on Sukkot.
a. John 1:14 states that: the word became flesh and “dwelt” us. The Greek word “dwelt” [skeinao] comes from the word skeinos, which the LXX (Septuagint) uses for the mishkan (tabernacle). The name given for the feast of Tabernacles itself is called the Herotei Skeinon in the LXX.
b. King Herod most likely would have used the festival of Sukkot (in Jerusalem) to perform the census. He certainly would not have used the festival of Chanukah (in December), since he detested and feared the Hasmoneans.
c. Shepherds would not be out with their sheep in the dead of winter in Israel. The angel that appeared to the shepherds said, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people (Luke 2:10).” Since Sukkot was known as a festival of joy and was also known as the “Festival of the Nations,” the angel was actually giving them a greeting for the Festival of Sukkot. This is the only festival where the nations are positively encouraged to participate (Zechariah 14:16- 19).
d. After Yeshua returns to set up His kingdom on earth, it is written that only one will be celebrated by the nations- Sukkot (Zechariah 14:16). Why is that? Could it be that this will be a worldwide birthday party for Yeshua? All the other festivals would have been fulfilled: Passover, First Fruits, Pentecost, Rosh HaShanah, and Yom Kippur, but the remembrance of His birthday would remain a celebration.
e. The Roman Catholic Church, in 336 AD, declared that December 25th (on the Julian calendar) to be Yeshua’s birthday in order to replace the pagan Roman holiday of Saturnalia. Ironically, December 25th was a celebration of the birthday on the sun god. The early church, in an attempt to get rid of the pagan holiday, declared December 25th to be the birthday of the Son of God.
f. We know that Yeshua was 30 years old when He started His ministry (Luke 3:23), and assuming (as many Biblical scholars do) that He ministered for 3 ½ years, we can count backwards from the crucifixion (during Passover in Nissan) 6 months to discover His birthday in Tishri during Sukkot.
CONCLUSION: Since Zacharias served in the temple during the tenth week (in the month of Sivan) and his wife Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist shortly thereafter, then we can place the date of Yeshua’s birth in the month of Tishri during the festival of Sukkot.
End of Part 3 of 3 Parts.
Paul, this was a most excellent presentation. Thank you.
I certainly am glad that you got yourself mixed up in the message that spawned this, AND that you did not notice your mixup before now. (You originally stated that Yeshua was born on Pesach.)
Shalom Paul. Firstly, congrats for this explanation; I always exalt the orden and clarity in anything.
As you can remember, I’m not against a birth during Sukot, but against any categorical statement. As you said, there is a variance in probably John’s conceiving date, and so that, also concerning to Yehoshúa’s. It’s hard to conclude over probabilities. I think it would be better to suggest the Biblical references and let the door open to conclusions.
on other hand, and according to Redpath-Hatch Concordance to the Septuagint, the verb Skënosen (John 1:14) was used for the hebreo root: אהל or שכן (Volume II, p. 1273, column a), from which derives: ‘Ohel and Mishkan respectively.
Thus, Yehoshua’ would become The ‘Ohel (mo’ed) or the Mishkan, because this is connected more exactly I mean, with the first part of the Mishkan (cf. Heb. 9:8)
τουτο δηλουντος του πνευματος του αγίου, μηπω πεφανερωσθαι την τω αγίων όδον ετι της πρωτης σκηνης (Skënës) εχουσης στασιν.
2. Yeshua was conceived in Late Kislev (Nov/Dec) and born 40 weeks later during Sukkot.
a. Yeshua was conceived six months after John the Baptist (Luke 1:24- 27, 36). Note: that the “sixth” month refers to Elizabeth’s pregnancy, not the month of Elul (Luke 1:36).
b. Six months added to late Sivan is late Kislev, which is the time of the conception of Yeshua. Note: that the first day of the Jewish Festival of Chanukah, the Festival of Lights, is celebrated on the 25th day of Kislev, and Yeshua is called the Light of the World (John 8:12, 9:5, 12:46).
c. From the 15th day of Nissan (John’s Birthday), we add six months to arrive at the 15th day of the seventh month, Tishri- the first day of the festival of Sukkot.
d. If the day of His birth was the first day of Sukkot, then the day of His circumcision would be on the eighth day, Shemini Atzeret/Simchat Torah (Sukkot VIII), which is a sacred assembly, like the first day (Leviticus 23:39). On this day the Jews complete their annual cycle of Torah readings and start again at Bereshit (Genesis 1:1). Simchat Torah is considered to be a time of “fulfillment” of the Torah. The circumcision of Yeshua at this time indicates how He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17- 8).
Part 2 of 3 Parts
However Yeshua was born on Pesach I and was circumcized on Shimini Atzeret (Pesach VIII).
Its great to know that we can know things for certain like that :-).
Mr. Eli, Excuse me, but this is a rare message, knowing Yehoshua’ wasn’t born on 25th of December.
The followers of Yehoshua’ Hamashíach, must know that date is a pagan date, and it’s an error to celebrate the Birthday of Jesus, for we don’t know, and wasn’t said nor commanded in Torah and the renewed covenant.
Dear Eric, as you know I appreciate you a lot. But I think you are very wrong here :-). What I mean is your militant attitude towards those things is disproportionate. We don’t know when Jesus was born. That is a fact. If the date was THAT important I am sure God would have specified it. As he did in other cases.
Is Christmas mandated by Scriptures like other holidays? Of course not. But so aren’t birthday celebration in general (including YOUR OWN birthday)? Independence days of countries. Martin Luther’s day or International Women’s day. So what???????!!!!!!! Leave it alone my friend. Dec.25 is just as good of a date as any other. There is NOTHING pagan about dates. All days in the year belong to the LORD. This includes Dec. 25!
No I am not ignorant I know that it was a pagan holiday in the Roman world that was celebrate on Dec.25. But it had nothing to do with CHRISTMAS!!!!! Constantine said that people should not celebrate this pagan holiday any more and displaced it by this one.
You and I would not do it (incidentally, I celebrate Christ in every way but not Christmas on Dec.25 for cultural reasons), but I think that constantly attaching people that do is not good and I stand against this judgmental attitude (though I like you personally).
I think you have wonderful things to contribute, but this I believe hold you back from being even more productive in God’s kingdom and certainly in this forum. Dr. Eli
Dear Dr. Eli, of course, I knew, also I knew who Jesus Christ did not born on this date, but before, and until we could know the real birth data, this is the data we have, however. So Merry Christmas for you and yours whenever it is!
Thank you, friend.
Dear Dr. Eli!
Thank you very much for your wishes related to this holiday season.
Actually, most Christians don’t put in relation January 1st with the circumcision of Jesus-Christ: we should, so as to think more of the common origin of the jewish and christian religions.
I take advantage of forwarding this message, to point out that personally i believe that the Lord is not concerned with religions, but rather with spirituality. I mean that what makes the difference between two people is not religion (being of one or another religion or not being religoius at all), but spirituality (being or not being spiritual, i.e. mature, responsible). In the end, all spiritual people are believers, even without knowing it… I appreciate deeply your comments on the Gospel of John and let me say that I sincerely feel that we are brothers in the faith. And it would be really wonderful to share our knowledge about our common God, the Lord of Israel…
Best wishes to you too, Dr. Eli!
Dr. Stefano Giliberti
How can anyone be a believer without knowing it? Although this is possible for remote people to believe in the Creator without ever having heard of Him, your comment sounds rather new age.
Be cautious. Not all “spirituality” is based in truth. The spiritual being known a Satan appears as an angel of light, and very “spiritual”, but is the father of lies.
Thank you for your seasons greetings
May the peace and love of the Triune God bless His world on the anniversary of the incarnation of His Son Jesus Christ, and may His blessings extend even to those who either don’t yet know Him or believe in Him