In his talk “Jesus Kept Kosher” Prof. Daniel Boyarin argues that Mark 7:19 passage “Thus He (Jesus) declared all foods clean” has been misunderstood.
Daniel Boyarin is a professor of Talmudic Culture at University of California at Berkeley. There is a saying that goes something like this: “Religion exists to comfort the disturbed, and to disturb the comforted.” When I think of this saying I think of Daniel Boyarin.
To watch this fascinating 15 minutes movie, please, click HERE. You will not be disappointing. I guarantee it.
Doesnt Paul say (Rom 14 20) All food is kosher?
Its more complicated than first would seem. Listen to Boyarin’s points (now I am not sure I agree with him, I am like you, still thinking about it). Kosher and Clean is NOT the same categories. Boyarin in his talk makes a difference between them and explains that it is understood in Judaism. PLUS the issue here is NOT whether or not you can’t eat it, but whether or not Jesus eat it :-).
Dear Dr. Eli,
I like you am not formally connected to any religious organization, in the past I have been associated with charismatic Christianity, and Messianic Judaism, although neither seemed understand scripture, they simply seemed to weave it into their needs. I notice in the opening answer you seem to feel that the B”Rit Chaddasha was not changed by the early church, have you considered the lineages found in Mattityahoo and Lucas? Mattityahoo’s lineage goes through Coniah, the problem here is that Coniah was cursed of G_d and No-One of his line would ever sit upon the throne of Da”Vid
Jeremiah 22:24 thru 22:30
The lineage of Lucas does not go through Schlomo,
Psalms 89:34 thru 89:37 and 1 Chronicles 22:9 thru 22:10 Here I will say that I have asked this question many times and the only answer I have received is that the Diety of Ha’Shem is not to be questioned,.
This I will answer with Ha’Shems own words:
Psalms 89:34.
jj
John, hi.
Read this an old friend of mine wrote this about 10 years ago. I think my answer to you would not be much different. Try to read it as much as possible as an objective reader and not a man who has to prove his position.
G-d will honor your openness and honesty.
thirdmill.org/newfiles/ra_mclaughlin/OT.McLaughlin.Jeconiah.doc
Yours,
Dr. Eli
If I understand you correctly, you are referring to Gospel writers, and you feel that there is an issue with any leadership from them in the church. I should maybe mention that Jesus(pbuh) said when they disagreed over who was the greatest that they were not to laud it over others like leaders, and that he also said that to be the greatest in heaven, you need to be the humblest here. (Jesus himself didn’t take up any throne.)
Shalom, I find your arguments to be mostly sided with the church and their teachings, Rav Shaul was upset at Kefa for requiring immediate circumcision or the gentiles would not be allowed to worship on Sabbath in the synagogues or Temple, he proved this point by using Noachide laws which pre-date the Avrahamic covenant of circumcision, showing that it is possible to be Kadosh without circumcision. by showing this he kept many gentiles following yeshua’s teachings and worshiping in the Temple and synagogues who would have been driven away by the “requirement” of circumcision before understanding.
The “Holy Roman church” was responsible for moving the Sabbath to the first day of the week, it is my understanding they did this to keep their “pagan” population in line and in acceptance of the new religion they were creating, worshiping on the first day of the week was normal for the Roman people as the worship of the “sun” was a first day event, hence “Sunday.”
there are many more points I would like to comment on but we will take them a few at a time.
jj
Dear John,
I think you are right or almost right (to my mind) on all your points.
Just as point of background, I do not have any formal or significantly informal connection to any religious body of any kind today. I was however in the past connected with a strongly protestant Christian denominations this is probably why I see things the way I see them. But I don’t think it’s bad. One only must be aware of his natural prejudice. I think I am more or less aware of mine.
Dr. Eli
There is absolutely no biblical evidence that Jesus maintained Pharisaic dietary rules. There is ample evidence to the contrary. Paul insisted that, not only are we Jews in Christ not bound by the dietary laws, the requirement to circumcise our male children, etc., but that we are bound not to consider ourselves as bound, or behave as thought we are. Messiah has fulfilled all that is required of us in that respect. Our duties now consist in “the righteous requirements of the Law” = they are moral duties, incumbent on all who own the name of the Savior.
Baruch Maoz, Gedera, Israel
I repeat my previous feedback: “No one (Daniel Boyarin including) is saying that Jesus maintained Pharisaic dietary rules.” Thank you for your comment.
wisdom is given frm G-d 2 who he wishes and he check’s one’s heart to debate, if we are worthy of the blessing’s he will show us his salvation .
Jesus was quoted as saying ” I have come to fulfill the law not change the law”. Why then did his disciples change the law to:
a) do away with necessity of following Kosher (food) laws)?
b) changing the Sabbath to Sunday:
c) doing away with Jewish Holidays which honor God.
c) If Peter and/or Paul had visions or heard
God speak, why should we give more credence to what they interpreted or did and changed than what God told Moses on Mount Sinai the 612 laws and precepts in the Old Testament.
Why should we give more credence to What Peter or Paul said or interpreted than what Jesus said, believed, and practiced his whole life?
Did the Christian church elevate Peter and Paul into authorities higher than God , higher than Jesus?
Breaking bread with Gentiles, feeding the poor does not require abolution of Kosher laws. Feeding the hungry , you can give them Kosher food. Beef, Chicken, Lamb, fish with fins and scales are all permissible.
The arguments about eating with Gentiles is specious.
Whatever Peter and Paul’s motivation: ie.,
obtaining converts more easilyl etc by not
requiring circumcision or not eating pork and
seafood , does not give them the right or alleged God’s instructions or visions to stop
following the Kasreth laws or doing away with
circumsicion.
You may all be scholars and know history and
biblical interpretations of the new testament but your reasoning is faulty.
How can you say the New Testament is Jewish?
Jewish people do not generally accept the New
Testament in any form ( Seventh day Adventists being the exception).
The New Testament abandons the 612 precepts/ laws in the Old Testament. Jesus did not abandon these precepts. He lived by them.
ins
You wrote: Jesus was quoted as saying ” I have come to fulfill the law not change the law”.
A.: Inaccurate quotation.
Why then did his disciples change the law to:
A.: Unsubstantiated claim.
a) do away with necessity of following Kosher (food) laws)?
A.: For Gentiles yes. (Acts 15) a very similar ruling to a Rabbinic Jewish idea.
b) changing the Sabbath to Sunday:
A.: Disciples did not do that.
c) doing away with Jewish Holidays which honor God.
A.: Disciples did not do that. Even Christians celebrated most of the holidays as a new version of the Old Testament Holidays (Christian feasts in Orthodox or Catholic traditions especially) can be clearly seen to be a continuation of the OT “Jewish” holidays.
c) If Peter and/or Paul had visions or heard
God speak, why should we give more credence to what they interpreted or did and changed than what God told Moses on Mount Sinai the 612 laws and precepts in the Old
Testament.
A.: You are assuming things that are just not true 🙂
Why should we give more credence to What Peter or Paul said or interpreted than what Jesus said, believed, and practiced his whole life?
Did the Christian church elevate Peter and Paul into authorities higher than God , higher than Jesus?
A.: I c.
Breaking bread with Gentiles, feeding the poor does not require abolution of Kosher laws. Feeding the hungry , you can give them Kosher food. Beef, Chicken, Lamb, fish with fins and scales are all permissible.
The arguments about eating with Gentiles is specious.
A.: Believe it or not I agree with you. As I responded to one of the people commenting. NT forbids jesus-following Jews NOT to eat with gentiles, but it does not mean that one must eat treif with gentiles. There are plenty of kosher choices.
Whatever Peter and Paul’s motivation: ie.,
obtaining converts more easilyl etc by not
requiring circumcision or not eating pork and
seafood , does not give them the right or alleged God’s instructions or visions to stop
following the Kasreth laws or doing away with
circumsicion.
A.: OK. I think we more or less covered most issues here.
You may all be scholars and know history and
biblical interpretations of the new testament but your reasoning is faulty.
A.: 🙂
How can you say the New Testament is Jewish?
Jewish people do not generally accept the New
Testament in any form ( Seventh day Adventists being the exception).
A.: 🙂
The New Testament abandons the 612 precepts/ laws in the Old Testament. Jesus did not abandon these precepts. He lived by them.
A.: I have no problem with you thinking that. I think we all should be free to express our convictions, as long as we argue them and argue them well. Since you are in law practice I think you should know the value of clear, convincing argumentation.
Be well.
Dr. Eli
thank’s 4 this people & as a Infidel/ gentile ILL stick with Yeshua’s teaching’s after all he’s ABBA father EeL CHAD is yeshua’s ‘-ab some day my we see him on the road of mercy & salvation toward G-d’s houses his will be done, not our’s, shalom ha moRE Eli
Gilbert, God loves everyone equally. Jews just as dear to him as non-Jews. May you know his commitment, love and passion for you and your family. Dr. Eli
Dr. Eli..God’s love reflects in your responses to all the comments…it is beautiful to witness!!
Thank you for being such an understanding and committed teaher!
Thank you so much for your kind words, Madeli!
There is absolutely no evidence — biblical or extra-biblical — that Jesus kept the Pharisaic dietary laws. Paul clearly taught we are not only not bound even by the biblical dietary laws, but that we are bound not to consider ourselves bound to them. See my book COME LET US REASON TOGETHER (THE UNITY OF JEWS AND GENTILES IN CHRIST) .
Baruch Maoz, Gedera Israel
I do not think that Daniel Boyarin argues that Jesus kept the Pharisaic dietary laws. Be well.
Sha’ul taught that while Gentiles coming into the community were not “bound”, they should respect Kosher Law in order to have fellowship. Is is not a matter of chesed, if one is grafted into the community via Yeshua, to be respectful of the Law G_d gave to His people?
BS”D
I must point here, something is being ignored. Sha’ul’s (Paul) teaching -following Rom 14:14 -, is referred to the concept of (חולין) Hulin “the considered profane according to the jewish tradition and custome” (Cf. Mishnáh, maséjet ‘Avodáh Zaráh, 2:1, 2, 3; Maséjet Julín 1:1; Maséjet kelim. 1:8), and not to the commandment of the Torah over pure or impure animals.
Gentils are not oblied to observe the mistic and hyperbolical considerations of the Sages of the Judaism built on the commandments of the Torah. So, one thing is which was writen, and another is the built and developed over them.
To guide gentils and jews to loss care about the “hulin fear”, is not the same thing that affirm Sha’ul taught to abolish the commandment of the Torah; the real teaching is: Gentils are purified by the work of Yehoshua’ (Jesus) and they are also capable now to observe the commandments of the Torah and to be so clean and pure as a jew in average, without fear. The problem is over who teaches which Sha’ul (Paul) didn’t said.
First question – Didnt Peter eat with gentiles- I know He was conflicted but doesnt that say there was some loosening going on? or maybe suggest that Paul was eating with them as well?
Second question I’m sorry but I have to say this- Daniel Boyarin supports – no never mind.
Not eating with gentiles is indeed forbidden by NT. Eating with gentiles does not, however, mean eating treif with them. :-).
About your second point: Daniel Boyarin is a liberal thinking Jew. He surely does not fit into many boxes at all. What I can say about him however is this (I met him personally and corresponded with him extensively). he is one of the humblest and kind people you will ever meet.
These are good comments to remind us that Jesus was not a Christian, anymore than Abraham was a keeper of the later Mosaic Law. On the other hand, many fail to appreciate how blasphemous some of Jesus’ words and deeds were in regard to “holiness” precepts in the Torah as understood by some of Jesus’ contemporaries. Caught up in later Christian debates about Christology, many incorrectly think the Jewish leaders only opposed Jesus because he thought he was “God.”
This is not the whole story at all. Much of the opposition came about also over Jesus apparent disregard, at times, for Pharisaic and “Temple-keepers” ideas about holiness.
There would NOT have been the Cornelius story of Acts 10-11 had Jesus taught his followers to abandon Torah!
Yes!